Forums - MvsC2: Team Steroids : Juggernaut, Hulk, Sentinal Show all 60 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- MvsC2: Team Steroids : Juggernaut, Hulk, Sentinal (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=57231) Posted by TeemSteroidz on 03:14:2002 10:15 PM: MvsC2: Team Steroids : Juggernaut, Hulk, Sentinal sup peoples, i need some strats and combos for hulk and juggs mainly i got sentinal down.... thanks... Posted by BshidoHEAT on 03:14:2002 10:29 PM: Re: MvsC2: Team Steroids : Juggernaut, Hulk, Sentinal quote: Originally posted by TeemSteroidz sup peoples, i need some strats and combos for hulk and juggs mainly i got sentinal down.... thanks... Well, one piece of advice. Jugg Head Crush xx HSF= Dead person Posted by voodazz on 03:14:2002 11:00 PM: OR if you don't want to use ANY skill: use Hulk to build up your meter and once you get to level 3 or so, lure out their assist and WHAM!! Triple Hyper his ass and you gotcher yerself a dead assist, mister! If the guy tries to protect the assist KABLAM!! He'll eat the headcrush and everthing else as well! Two dead bodies for the price of 3 levels... fair trade I'd say! And if you have a glitched Juggs?... well... you're almost cheating! Team sucks against runaway though...duh... Posted by The Great Sephiroth on 03:15:2002 03:24 AM: Learn some of Hulk's unmashable Gamma Crush combos. They do big damage, while making you look cool with him. If you can combo it from a Glitched Juggernaut assist, you'll get some props for actually being a combo freak with Hulk... Oh, and Hulk has an infinite, if you didn't know. Posted by xXx-MaGnUs-xXx on 03:15:2002 06:14 AM: switch out hulk for colosus :P colosus with juggy is fun Posted by Trance Man on 03:15:2002 07:13 AM: HULK Gama Charge xx Gama Quake(if da timin is right then it takes hella damage) S.jp, s.fp(most deadly 2 hit combo ever) if they block it then xx s.fp into a HCB with jp to cover ur ass. I think his best jump in move is wk. then mk. GIEF Take out Juggy ad put in Gief. S.fp dp with fp A awkward lookin triangle jump: dp with either kick dependin on were opponent is, then come down with d.fp or d.wk. It works...sometimes. c.jp, c.sp, sj, jp, mk, 360 with fp(timin is hard,ut once get it, it takes of moe than a FAB, Final Atomic buster) easier version: take out 360, use Lariat, when they fall back down, do a FAB, again if timin is right then there is now way to get out. Posted by deadly_magneto on 03:15:2002 09:12 AM: u mustve seen tim play. so u want to play with him hahaa Posted by squirrelishere on 03:15:2002 05:12 PM: Is there really a infinite with Hulk? If there is one, think you's could post it. I like to play with Hulk and I need better combos. Posted by Juggrknott on 03:15:2002 05:46 PM: This team works, but you're going to have to get good with Hulk on point in order to get anywhere. Use the power to punish mistakes severely. Make the most of your chances, you probably won't get a whole lot against well-played top tier. Cable is your worst nightmare (of course), and Spiral knives can give you a hard time too. A good Sent can be overcome, but you'll bear the scars for doing so. Save your own Sent for the harder jobs (top tier, generally). Don't get mad when people run away from you. Zangief and Colossus are ok, but I wouldn't switch anybody out for them personally. Giving up glitched Jugg offense for Mega-Zangief AAA is *not* worth it, period. Colossus has some tricks up his sleeve, but has even less of an answer for runaway and air offense than Hulk does; I don't see where you gain anything with him for that trade. -Jugg "I think the Hulk infinite is a load. I'd love to be proven wrong, though." Posted by EEK on 03:15:2002 07:55 PM: Hulk's infinite can only be done in the corner... I've seen it done before in Mike Z's combo vid ("the next video" I think), so I can tell you what it looks like, but not exactly how to do it, or what limitations it has (I have the feeling it can only be done on characters of certain size and weight). It's a juggle in the corner: Rising Gamma Charge, cancel into U/F Gamma Charge. Opponent falls down stunned, you land first, repeat. I have no idea whether that's Short or Roundhouse Gamma Charges. You can check it out yourselves at: http://www.evilslash.com:8001/ Mike Z used a really freakin' elaborate setup for the infinite though... Posted by ytwojay on 03:15:2002 08:07 PM: quote: Originally posted by Trance Man GIEF Take out Juggy ad put in Gief. wtf. juggernaut is so much better than zangief. why would you suggest that? Posted by DoomsdayKen on 03:15:2002 08:43 PM: Honestly, I think that "Team Steriods" can work with either Juggernaut or Zangief. Hulk has some butt-ugly combos with both Gief's Ground and Juggernaut's Dash type including a very easy 100% combo with Gief's Ground type. Also, Mech Gief Ground type works great with an aggresive Sentinel. Gief's ground type sets up a HSF so easily. Mech Gief also eliminates almost any rushdown attempt with possible exceptions being the Tron projectile and Doom anti-air assists. I think what it really comes down to is if you want combo potential or just raw power. Picking Gief over Juggernaut weakens the THC combo greatly and Gief can't punish an assist as well by himself as a glitched Juggernaut, Gief just helps set up something to punish the assist. Basically, it depends on the player and what you are going for on going against. Peace. Posted by Juggrknott on 03:15:2002 09:06 PM: Bah, you're biased Erik.... But then again, I guess I am too.... Zangief (or Colossus) can work, but to me Jugg does more for the team. Against serious rushdown, MZ lariat assist might be superior, but I think that's kind of situational. For a general purpose team, stick with the Juggman. -Jugg Posted by Th3 0N3 on 03:15:2002 09:26 PM: I play this team a lot to get rid of the scrubs, and I find have Juggy is a must!(mainly is dash assist) I use Juggs on point (unless I'm against high tiers then I'll usually swtich with Sent) and I just throw his j.fp everywhere ( has mad priority ) and I stick em with Magic series ( if glitch; will deal 75%+ on most characters FYI ). Posted by Deathfist on 03:15:2002 11:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by Juggrknott -Jugg "I think the Hulk infinite is a load. I'd love to be proven wrong, though." I have memorized how to execute the infinite. After seeing it done in a combo video when Warganic was active I tried it out and it worked. =Hulk Corner infinite= d+hp[1 hit], [Upwards hk gamma charge, UF hk gamma charge redirection,...] repeat this parenthesis immediately upon landing. How do you combo an unmashable crush off of a juggernaut punch assist? I can easily do it off an earthquaker or spiral-a/y but I never heard of this. Don't sub in Zangief. I think he's the worst character in the entire game. [that's an entirely different topic however...] Hope this helps someone. Posted by DoomsdayKen on 03:15:2002 11:58 PM: quote: Originally posted by Juggrknott Bah, you're biased Erik.... But then again, I guess I am too.... Zangief (or Colossus) can work, but to me Jugg does more for the team. Against serious rushdown, MZ lariat assist might be superior, but I think that's kind of situational. For a general purpose team, stick with the Juggman. -Jugg Yea, I might be biased. But keep on mind I saw both Mech Gief and glitched Jugg used in tourney play well. And what I saw was Juggernaut was used more as a counter assist, i.e. they call their's then you call Jugg to kill em, while Gief was called out as anti-rushdown and set-up plenty of combos. Thats why I say its more situational. Either way though, I think both teams can do well. Posted by Juggrknott on 03:16:2002 01:29 AM: Can't argue with that, DDK... you've seen this applied in Philly recently, and I haven't. So I defer to you on the actual real-life usage and results. I have to give the (Mega-)Beef assist some props. It stops a lot of things cold, INCLUDING a Juggernaut Punch. It is a nightmare for any TJ-based plan. It's very good anti-Mag and anti-Cammy, so that's always a plus. That being said, he will take a lot of blows in MZ mode. You have to burn a level to get it, and he'll be gone before you know it if you aren't careful. Plus, if you for some strange reason end up with him last, you have to burn another level to get your block back. I find this *very* irritating, even though I like Beef and everything... Sure, he's the "throwaway" character on the team, but so is Juggernaut to a large extent. I like having counter XX Headcrush much more than what Beef offers... so I guess I'll keep my Jugg. I saw that Mike Z vid with Hulk finally that was referred to earlier; it was MvC2 vid #11, for anybody interested. I'm pretty sure it was short, short as far as the Gamma Charges, and he only got 2 reps on it. Also, it was set up after the character was "popped up" when he DHCed Thanos Soul Gem super into Gamma Wave, up against the wall. 2 reps doesn't exactly = infinite, and I'm sure the "pop-up" probably had something to do with it all. It would be somewhat difficult to do consistently and reliably, even if it technically "works"; doesn't seem feasible. Still, I think it merits more exploration, and I appreciate you pointing it out to us. Looks interesting. I'll definitely kick it around some. -Jugg Posted by Romie on 03:16:2002 02:16 AM: i seen tim play team steroids before in a tournament, he glitched up juggs, tagged out, brought in hulk, built up some meter, and when the opponent beings in an assist, TRIPLE TEAM!!!!! it usually kills one assist..... that being said, the only combo i have with hulk w/juggernaut dash assist is: lk, lk+call juggs, gamma charge forward, earthquake super... madd damage... Posted by EEK on 03:16:2002 06:34 AM: quote: Originally posted by Juggrknott I saw that Mike Z vid with Hulk finally that was referred to earlier; it was MvC2 vid #11, for anybody interested. I'm pretty sure it was short, short as far as the Gamma Charges, and he only got 2 reps on it. Also, it was set up after the character was "popped up" when he DHCed Thanos Soul Gem super into Gamma Wave, up against the wall. 2 reps doesn't exactly = infinite, and I'm sure the "pop-up" probably had something to do with it all. It would be somewhat difficult to do consistently and reliably, even if it technically "works"; doesn't seem feasible. Still, I think it merits more exploration, and I appreciate you pointing it out to us. Looks interesting. I'll definitely kick it around some. -Jugg You're welcome... Actually, I think Hulk had that 'infinite' in some of the earlier games too. I put 'infinite' in quotations 'coz you're right, it's not proven it's an infinite if there're only two reps of it... my bad. I don't know much about Hulk... Anyway, you might want to check out Mike Z's newest video too. 'Clean Up'. It has some nice unmashable Gamma Crush combos. I don't think the bulk of them are that practical in combat (except for the Magneto/ Hulk one that everybody already knows about and is also in there), but they're pretty cool to see. Also, if I remember correctly, www.cornertrap.com had some 3X matches available, one of the guys there used Team Steroids. He f**kin' crippled a Cable/ Sentinel with the Triple Team... Posted by Juggrknott on 03:16:2002 07:04 AM: quote: Originally posted by Deathfist I have memorized how to execute the infinite. After seeing it done in a combo video when Warganic was active I tried it out and it worked. =Hulk Corner infinite= d+hp[1 hit], [Upwards hk gamma charge, UF hk gamma charge redirection,...] repeat this parenthesis immediately upon landing. ..... Hope this helps someone. Thank you, Deathfist. I missed this post somehow... my bad. Still knockin' 'em down with Amingo? I will definitely try this out. Like I said, I *want* to be proven wrong on this. Hulk needs all he can get! -Jugg "Can somebody confirm if you can do s. HK XX Gamma Charge XX super right up against the wall against an incoming character for a guard break, or am I just getting lucky?" Posted by Mr. Big on 03:16:2002 08:14 AM: I'd love to put my Team BIG (Juggernaut [B], Colossus [A], and Sentinel [G] ) against Team Steroids. I personally prefer Colossus over Hulk because of his speed, cross ups, high priority (especially with the Power Charge), damage taking ability (second only to Sentinel [or a Ice-Powered Silver Samurai if you want to get technical]), his Power Armor (you'd be amazed at how many traps and rushdowns this will stop), his seriously underrated Power Dive (insane invincibility, priority and Headcrush-like speed when done in the air) and his ability to link things off Jug's and Sentinel's assists. I don't use Hulk all that often, but here are some little tidbits about him that could help make him more effective. Whenever you can, try to get into the practice of calling Sentinel's assist when you go for a Gamma Crush. If done right, the enemy will still be in the air from getting hit by the drones when you come down, and the Gamma Crush will hit more times and do simply stoopid Glitched-Juggernaut-Headcrush damage. If done right, you can literally do approximently 133 points of damage on a normal char (Cable) and outright kill those with less than average health with one assist call and one super. Also, I'm probably sure you know about the ability for the opponent to mash out of the Gamma Crush if they are on the ground when you do it, so get into the habit of launching them first, hitting them while they're in the air, or using an assist (like in the earlier example) to keep them from laying on the ground long enough to get up before Hulk comes on down. Juggernaut (the person who I've used the most in MvC2) has a great pressure move in the jumping Sp, it's range and priority is quite good indeed and it's also an decent crossup (as is his J. Sk). Also the fact that you can combo any -ANY- of his regular attacks into a Headcrush (except for the sweep of course), even a jab done from max range. Don't underestimate his air combo abilities either, especially in the corner. These are some of my bread and butters: Juggernaut #1: (in the corner) J. Sp., C. Sp, J. Lp, J. Lp, J. Sk, J. Sp, J.Sk, C. Lk, C. Sp. 9 Hits, Unglitched: 85 Damage (out of 143), with power-up glitch: 120 Damage. You can subsitute the second J. Lp with a J. Lk to make connecting with it easier. An add-on I have with this combo (for those people who try to retaliate after the second C. Sp is: Jab Juggernaut Punch, C. Lk, Headcrush. Or if you are going against a heavy character (Another Juggy, Hulk, Etc.) instead of doing the Headcrush, do a S. Sp, to knock them back up into the air where you can do the Juggy air combo again. Evil, isn't it? However, in either case, don't do the Juggernaut Punch if you think they'll block, because you -will- be punished for it. Juggernaut #2: J. Sp, C. Lk, C.Lk, Jab Juggernaut Punch, Headcrush 8-11 hits (depending on Headcrush), Unglitched: 104-127 Damage, with powerup glitch: 138-Fatal. I occasionally start the match with this (minus the J. Sp), it certainly suprises people and puts them in a bad position early on. Juggernaut #3: Throw, Strong Juggernaut Punch xx Headcrush. 6-9 hits (depending on Headcrush), Unglitched: 100-125 Damage, with Powerup Glitch: 139-Fatal. It's surprising how many people don't roll this since they don't expect Jugs to be able to hit them from a full screen away. Juggernaut #4: J. Sp, S. Sp, Jab Juggernaut Punch, c. Lk, Headcrush. 8 Hits, Unglitched: 112 Damage, Glitched: Fatal Special Situation combos. Juggernaut #6: In corner against a heavy char (Hulk, Jugs, Sentinel, Blackheart, etc): J. Sp, Jab Juggernaut Punch, C. Lk, Foward+Sp, Strong Body Press. 5 Hits, Unglitched: 68 (against another Juggernaut, who takes 15% less damage than average), Glitched: 103. A nice little flashy combo mostly to show that it is possible to combo a Body Press. Juggernaut #7: In or near corner against a heavy char (except Sentinel): J. Sp, S. Sp, Headcrush, C. Lk, S. Sp, J. Lp, J. Sp. 10 Hits, Unglitched: 91 (against another Jugs), Glitched: 132 Juggernaut #8: In or near corner against a heavy char (except Sentinel): J. Sp, S. Sp, Heacrush, C. Lk. Headcrush. This one is rather hard to hit properly since they tend to bounce to the ground during the second Headcrush, but it is possible to land. Don't rely on this one so much, just use it for a little flash. For some reason, Sentinel's hit sprite is roughly half of what it normally is when he's on his back, so anything after the OTG C.Lk will whiff. Juggernaut #9: After any Headcrush against a regular char, do a Strong Juggernaut Punch as they're falling down to OTG them and Headcrush them again. This does crazy damage, in fact, it's pretty much fatal if you manage to catch it: glitched or unglitched. You want the Juggernaut Punch to come out just as they're starting to fall down. It takes a LOT of practice, and even I still can't do it all the time. Definitely a dead char and a crowd pleaser if it works, however. Finally, just to make a number #10, I'll throw in a combo I made up a lonnng time back and quite possibly may have been in a Mike Z video (I was the one told him this particular combo). Anyway, here is what I call "The Mr. Big Special" First you need, in this order, Colossus and Juggernaut (Dash Type), the third character is optional, and at least 4 levels of Super Meter. With the opponent in the corner, call Juggernaut just as you jump to J. Sk, as you land Jug's should have Juggernaut Punch'ed the opponent, Rejump and do Colossus' Giant Swing to catch the opponent as they fly back from Jug's Punch and throw them into the corner (roll the pad for more damage), knock them off the ground with a C. Lk, S. Sk, J. Lp, J. Lp, J. Lk, L. Shouder Charge, Power Dive. As both characters are heading down with the Power Dive, hyper cancel early into the Juggernaut Headcrush (which should only hit once). The 1 hit Headcrush should knock them WAY into the air, giving Jug's enough time to turn around and Headcrush them again before they hit the ground, then, before they get up (you have to be fast), off the ground them with a Juggernaut Punch and Juggernaut Headcrush them again (and, if you want, cancel into the 3rd character's super). And yes everyone, this all combo's! >:-D Depeneding on how many times the last 2 Headcrushes hit, this combo will have 20-26 hits between Colossus and Juggernaut. As you can imagine the damage from this is utterly rediculous. In fact, by the time Colossus finishes his part of the combo, the character is dead (A full 143 damage). It doesn't work on small character's and Sentinel (who's hit detection is really small when he's on his back). To do the full combo you would have to be in Training mode, but you can do a variation of it in a actual fight. And to make it easier on those of you who want to give this combo a shot: (With Colossus) J. Sk + Call Juggernaut, J. Sp Giant Swing, C. Lk, S. Sk, J. Lp, J. Lp, J. Lk, L. Shoulder Charge, Power Dive, Early HC into Juggernaut Headcrush, Juggernaut Headcrush, S. Juggernaut Punch, Juggernaut Headcrush. Geez, I should've just wrote a faq instead. Maybe I should, depending on what you guys think. Anyway, I hope I don't get flamed for this insanely long post. Hope I've been helpful! Posted by Mr. Big on 03:16:2002 08:31 AM: Heh, just when I thought I typed enough. A nasty trick to do after any Headcrush is to do a Sp. Earthquake. This makes them take some unavoidable chip damage (every little bit helps) and keeps them pinned for a sec for you to move in. When structuring combos, be sure to squeeze in as many strong hits as many and as early as you can (before the damage reduction kicks in). Damage reduction is based on the number of hits, not the amount of damage dealt. So, as an example, you could have a combo that hits 12 times, and have another one that hits 6 times and do more damage. Keep the pressure on the enemy (just what the Sentinel Gamma assist is so great for), and herd them into the corner and keep them there. Be a bully with the big chars...or better than that, a force of nature. Don't so much wait for them to make a mistake, but pressure them so much that they crack and make a mistake. If you are on top of your game, you can take out a character in a combo or two. In a tournement, I once beat a team in 14 seconds but pressuring them into the corner and eating him alive. People will tend to be more careful when they see that even so much as a glancing hit from a big char can do as much as one of their smaller comboes. Okay, that's all for me for now. This time I mean it, honest. Posted by Romie on 03:16:2002 02:45 PM: how you get more than 4 hits with the headcrush?? i mash, but i still only get 4 hits Posted by Juggrknott on 03:16:2002 06:05 PM: quote: Originally posted by Romie how you get more than 4 hits with the headcrush?? i mash, but i still only get 4 hits The closer the point is to you, the harder it is to get more than 4 hits. It's very tough to get inside 1/2 screen. I would say impossible, but maybe you just have to mash the buttons into dust; I generally don't mash THAT damn hard... Past 1/2 screen, it's doable. At full screen, it gets downright easy. That's in terms of the point character, mind you. On assists, you seem to be able to mash out up to 8 hits no matter how close the character was to you. It's still harder closer in than further away, though. Also, even if you were mashing before the fact and the assist kind of jumped out there mid-Headcrush, it will still mash. Even if the point is blocking it but the assist is out there getting hit, it will still mash. So MASH! Even if it doesn't really look like you need to. You might get a pleasant surprise, you never know. -------- About the corner infinite Deathfist pointed out.... I've been working on it, and it's surprisingly doable. A few notes: - Try to get those drawn-out "daddy longstroke" gamma charges for best results (not the short, abbreviated ones). The longer the better. You need the time in order to charge for the next one. - Once you get the 2nd (UF) Gamma Charge, charge down IMMEDIATELY. Don't just watch yourself flying through the air & falling back down. It's easy to do this, so break the habit early and it will be easier on you. - Use the falling character as a kind of yardstick to see when you need to GC again. The window for sucess is very small (just a few frames), so you have to get it *just* right. It takes some practice, no doubt. I can get 2 or 3 reps now, but it would probably be quite awhile before I had enough confidence consistency-wise to try to kill a whole character with this. I'm thinking I might just get 3 reps, and then maybe bang on Jugg assist and try to OTG with c. lk or something, and then roundhouse GC XX Gamma Wave (or something like that). We'll see. Again, thanks very much Deathfist. Adds another dimension to Hulk's wall game, most definitely. -Jugg Posted by voodazz on 03:16:2002 08:53 PM: Hey, Mr. BIG! I think you should go ahead and write that faq. I've just started using team "BIG" and I could use some combos/strats with them. Thanks Posted by Gen2000 on 03:16:2002 09:12 PM: I had posted alot of stuff earlier about the team, but srk.com was acting up and it didn't get posted. I think Team Steriods is fun to use, not exactly the best team, but still fun. What do you guys think is the best assist for the team? I mean its clear with Hulk, use Dash and Sent to use his Ground, but what about Juggernaut? Most will say Dash (his Punch), but his other assist can help the team out. Jugg's Earthquake assist adds some chip and semi-space control with the team if used with Sentinel on point. Plus you get the counter of Earthquake, XX, Headcrush with either of the other characters on point. His Variety can be used as a bootleg AAA kinda, plus most people don't noticed that its an overhead attack only, so you can play some alittle mix-up with Sent's flying stomps or Hulks whatever (not much of a Hulk player). The Dash Punch assist is mostly copied by Hulk's Dash, both are dashing assist and sets up for some combos, of course there are damage difference though. Remember Team Steriods can kill any assist (and most point characters) with the team super, Jugg doesn't have to be glitched to 100% kill them, the Headcrush and Gamma Crush combined alone is enough. The best way to do the team super is when either Sentinel or Juggernaut are on point since their instant super abilities makes the team super more effective. The main problem I see in Team Steriods is the actual building of meter. The team can so serious damage combos around though and when Sent in on point, he can cover the assist pretty well. Sent's Ground assist helps the others out, Jugg gets free Juggernaut Punches since it covers the lag and Hulk..whatevers (again, not the biggest Hulk player, lol). With Colossus subbed in for Hulk, you lose the 100% instant team super, but you get a faster power character and a more decent AA (now you can put Jugg back on Dash) its kinda your choice. Posted by Romie on 03:17:2002 04:40 AM: building meter with Team Steroids is easy, i use hulk, jump in wht HK, land lk, lk, call assist... you'd be suprised how much meter that builds in a short amount of time.... can someone help me with this, i cant seem to get the fully 143 points on an assist..... i get like 140 and they have like a pixel of life left, cause hulks super doesnt hit, it always comes up short or long, can someone help???? Posted by Blackheart2097 on 03:17:2002 04:50 AM: quote: Originally posted by deadly_magneto u mustve seen tim play. so u want to play with him hahaa Ya'll cali people know about Tim? oh shit i didn't know. all i can see about the team is DON'T let sentinel die. the whole point of the team is to make sentinel a god. once he dies then u LOSE. all u have to do is do the juggy glitch and then switch to sentinel. once sentinel is in call juggy and attack low as much as possiple. u'll catch cable off gaurd and when u do you can kill him with one combo. also if you see and assist do a triple or a double team to kill them. remeber what i told u don't let sentinel die.... Posted by Romie on 03:17:2002 05:13 AM: quote: all i can see about the team is DON'T let sentinel die. the whole point of the team is to make sentinel a god. once he dies then u LOSE. nah, when i seen tim play, he used hulk before sentinel, i think it would make more sense to use hulk before sent cause sent would be your backup, i mean, i doubt you would use hulk as sentinels backup.... i seen him play juggernaut too.... lp, lp, HEADCRUSHHHH!!!!!!!! Posted by Gen2000 on 03:17:2002 06:18 AM: I mean building meter against other real teams. I mean with the other team has a good assist or rushing Hulk down? Hulk and Sent's Ground assist can't do everything you know. Posted by Juggrknott on 03:17:2002 05:29 PM: I think a lot of people have heard about Tim by now; I first heard of his skillz with this team about a year ago. And from what I had read, he did (does) use Hulk on point mostly, and Jugg for cleanup. If things go well, Sent doesn't even have to get into the fray much, if at all. I think got 5th fairly recently at CF using them, and we all know what the comp there must be like. So it *can* work in the right hands. Of course, the people who have seen him could tell you much better than I could; I'm just going on a few posts. I suppose Sabin and BlackShinobi (among others) could give you a first-hand account. -------------- I'm still having trouble getting more than 3 reps on the Hulk corner infinite, and the 3rd one is damn hard to get. Frustrating. Is anybody else kicking this around? Am I doing something wrong? Right now, the best I can realistically do with it is get 2 reps, land, OTG s. Fierce XX roundhouse GC XX GW. -------------- Mr. Big, thanks very much for the long Juggernaut post. I have been able to take a thing or two from it, sometimes slightly modified. I appreciate your effort, it has been helpful. -Jugg "Hulk can build you meter just fine, as long as you don't blow it all on bailout GQs." Posted by FecalPenance on 03:17:2002 06:00 PM: I fought tim back at nec2 and the matches are on tape somewhere... I won 2-1 his basic strategy is to bug up juggz safely, then get 3 meters to kill your assist, he puts juggz on variety (stage dive) and has some fake combos and crossups.... tim has the only good hulk I've seen, ever... I think I used bh/cable/doom and ironman/cable/doom to beat him... Posted by BlackShinobi on 03:18:2002 03:40 AM: The biggest problem with that team, aside from being big targets and having no projectiles is your third person comfort. I still like colossus as a third person. because I just don't feel comfortable with Hulk or Zangief and to tell the truth on the upper EC (above NJ) I've only seen one person who could pick Hulk in a match where they needed to win, and still win and one person could pick Zangief and still win. Posted by Juggrknott on 03:18:2002 02:37 PM: I'm inclined to agree with BlackShinobi. All the theory fighter in the world has nothing to do with your comfort level for a given character. So go with what works for you. It's not surprising to hear people writing Hulk off; as has been alluded to, there are very few good ones out there. There are probably whole states that have no serious Hulk players at all. To each his own. What I *would* like to hear is the argument for how Colossus > Hulk. That would be interesting to me. Of course, I'd be glad to take up the Hulk side of the argument. Any takers? -Jugg Posted by Mr. Big on 03:18:2002 07:43 PM: Oh I'll gladly take up the Colossus end of that debate, but where shall we begin? Posted by Juggrknott on 03:18:2002 07:53 PM: Ok, cool. Tell ya what.... ....how about you state the positives of Colossus, and the negatives of Hulk (in terms of Team Steroids), while I do the opposite? And let me be the very first to say that I don't know a whole, whole lot about Colossus, so take that into account, and I'll do the same for you re: Hulk. Thanks for obliging me. I'll let you start first. I might not be able to say *too* much for a couple of hours though, because I'm at work right now. Peace.... -Jugg Posted by Adept on 03:18:2002 08:53 PM: I like to alternate my usual teams with a Juggernaut/Sentinel team once in a while, it's a dramatic change in strategy from my Mag/Storm teams and it's hard for opponents to adapt. My Juggy is pretty lethal, but I have a couple of questions. If I power up Juggs, and then alpha counter to switch him out, will he still be powered up? Or does the glitch only work if he's tagged out? I played a really impressive Juggernaut at Golfland recently, learned a lot of nice tricks. During one match, he guard broke me with a belly flop into HC. To do this, would you use lk, or rh belly flop, and what exactly is the timing? Lastly, someone mentioned Juggy's "toe grab" in the air, what is that? Posted by Mr. Big on 03:18:2002 09:36 PM: Well, I did give Hulk his fair shake (more than once in fact) but he just didn't work for me. I'll focus in more on Colossus, though. Colossus has great mobility in my opinion: as far as actual movement speed (a very fast dash for a big guy, and an even faster backdash), and is quite manuevurable in the air. Hit for hit, he has the most powerful air combo (and also the most powerful ground combo in the game as well, not counting a glitched Juggernaut) in the game and can do all of his specials and one of his two supers in the air. He has a great cross-up (with his jumping Roundhouse), long range on his throws, his standing Fierce throw can be OTG'd from in the corner, and also his standing Fierce, jumping F+Fierce, and his crouching Roundhouse have half-screen range. His defense is second only to Sentinel (Colossus takes 20% less damage than normal chars). Power Tackle: Quite fast start-up, incredible priority, high damage, can OTG, can eat almost all projectiles (including most beams) without taking damage, can also be done in the air at two different angles. Can effecively be used as an anti-air. It's recovery time isn't too bad either. Power Swing: Can't be comboed into from many things (mostly from an assist, crouching Fierce, or a jumping Firece/Roundhouse), but does great damage (when joystick is spun), has good priority, and can be OTG'd from in the corner. Power Dive: Has a long invincibility window at startup, while it has long startup when on the ground (Colossus must be above normal jump height before he can actually dive) but INSANELY fast when done in the air (A person on the ground, offscreen, can whiff a jab and Colossus can activate the Power Dive, cancel into the actual dive, and hit them before they recover), awesome priority, and great damage. I have, on multiple occassions, mashed out of a Magneto Hypergrab, and Power Dived into Magneto before he could begin the Magnetic Tempest. A very underrated super in my opinion. Really, the super's only fault is that is has a good bit of recovery time if missed. It -really- sucks when you miss. Power Armor: It has a good bit of start up, (which can be easily negated if cancelled from a connected sweep, Power Tackle, or an assist) He doesn't lose any of his speed and still retains the ability to block while this super is in effect. And unlike many supers of it's kind, Colossus can still gain meter while it's in effect. So in theory, he can have his Power Armor for the entire match (a great, great bane for characters who rely on comboes and traps). An interesting thing to note about Colossus, and a number of people have mentioned this, is that his hits (especially his heavy hits and specials) have this unusual property of making things seemingly freeze for a second. Or rather, put the enemy in a longer hit stun than usual. That's all for now. I might be missing a couple of things at the moment, but if I am they'll come back to me later. прощание for now. Posted by Mr. Big on 03:18:2002 10:37 PM: Okay, I did a lot of messing around with the Hulk and here's what I view as his pitfalls. His damage taking ability is lower than that of Colossus (15%, which is the same as Juggernaut), and he's also a wider target. He lacks any specials and supers in the air, greatly decreasing his air capabilites. Also due to the unusual hitting angles of his attacks (coupled with the fact that his Medium Punch ends an air combo), his air combos are neither too damaging nor easy to pull off. His launcher is one of the few in the game that is a two-hit, and oftentimes in the heat of a fight, you'll make a attempt to launch and the first hit will knock them away from the 2nd hit (which is the one that actually launches). His dashes (forward and backward) are quite slow. His forward dash also lost it's ability to "dash through" characters that it had in the old days. And oddly, his backdash has this pause behind it before Hulk can get back into his fighting position. His throw can't be OTG'd from, although it does have pretty good range. In some cases, however, the enemy can retaliate from being slammed faster than Hulk can recover from slamming them (Something that never made sense to me, but that's video game logic for ya). Gamma Slam: This move could be something if it was faster, but as it stands it isn't that great of a move: long start up, long recovery, and doesn't do that much damage. Rather difficult to combo. Gamma Tornado: Does decent damage (although less than the Power Swing) and can be somewhat comboed from if the enemy is in the corner, but has the problem of having a lot of recovery if blocked. Really, Capcom could have made this move unblockable. Gamma Charge: Certainly the best special of Hulk's arsenal: good damage when it hits twice, decent priority, and has rather fast startup. However it doesn't cancel projectiles, has to hit twice to do more damage than one of Colossus Power Tackles, and is a charge move, which means you can't pull it off on reaction. Heaven help you if the Roundhouse version of this move is blocked. Capcom could've made this move a command motion -and- be able to be executed in the air. Gamma Wave: A decent super: fair startup, good damage (when hit properly), and good recovery. But this, unfortunately, don't do much damage if the enemy is anywhere near a corner (in which case it does approximently the damage of 2 jabs). Doesn't always hit properly on a jumping opponent. Gamma Quake: Fair startup, but some truly sad damage (many times less than 2 Gamma Charges) and is hard to hit properly. Many times the enemy will only get hit a couple times and be free to retailiate before Hulk finishes. Gamma Crush: Hulk's best super: Nice invincibility and fast on startup, great damage, good chipping, and the angle coming down can be controlled. However, it can be mashed out of in a number of cases (really, the only super in the game that can be mashed out of) and has a ton of recovery if blocked. My main problem with the Hulk is that for many of this things to hit properly the enemy has to be served up on a silver platter with the Sun, Moon, and stars in proper alignment. He has to rely on a lot of other factors (enemy placement, assists, other moves) for his specials and supers to connect the way they really should on their own. Also, for the recovery time on his moves, his screwy air combo system, and his total lack of being able to do specials and supers in the air, he should do a LOT more damage: certainly more than Colossus. Also, many of his attacks of this annoying habit of knocking the enemy far away (his standing Strong, Forward, Fierce, Roundhouse to name a few), which is really one of the last things you want is to have to chase a character nearly every time you hit them. If they somehow incorporated the "Madder the Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets" then that would definitely be something. Capcom really did a lot of crazy things with the Hulk that they didn't do to any other character, and I think that he suffers as a result of that. As Dennis Miller would say, "this is just my opinion, I could be wrong." Posted by Juggrknott on 03:19:2002 12:03 AM: Double post... sorry... Posted by Juggrknott on 03:19:2002 12:05 AM: Ok, my turn... What I will gladly give Colossus is an excellent dash (actually a run), an air super (great for DHCing him out in a jam), and a pretty decent AAA if you want it. His Hyper Armor is also good for rushdown/Mag counter. This works out to about +3 Colossus. His stamina may be a bit better than Hulk's, but it's not a huge difference. Probably won't make or break you in battle. He's also a little less "laggy" on his normals. +1 Colossus. What I *don't* particularly care for is burning meter on Hyper Armor that probably ought to go to HSF, the tough time he has protecting assists, and just being easier to run from and commit air offense on than Hulk overall. Hyper Armor is good, but when you activate it and come in swinging (and I know you will... ), I'll just launch+SJ if I can't outright run away from you or beat you to a throw. So it's good, but there are ways around it, & the meter you just burned is fine by me. By the way, I don't think you can build a whole bar w/Colossus by the time the armor runs out; if you did, it probably means you got whaled on, and that ain't good. The shoulder tackle is OK, but it's no safer than a Gamma Charge, and what are you going to do if they block, cancel into Power Dive? Colossus' OTG game is nothing to count on. Nothing rollable is. Anyway, I don't know a tremendous amount re: Colossus, so I guess that's about all I'll say in direct reference to him. On to the Hulk... His air combo isn't that weird; just leave out the medium punch. And if you say it doesn't hurt, then you must be spoiled by Colossus, Jugg(g) and Sent AC damage or something. I guess pixies give out love taps for AC's by your definition... I dare you to give me a free one, that's all I'll say. His dash could be better, but he actually has a pretty nice "wave-hop" that probably gets you across the screen almost as fast as Colossus' run (which can't be wave-anythinged). If Capcom had made Hulk's command throw unblockable, he would be Too Good(tm). It cancels just fine after c. lp, s. lp or c. mp. If Capcom had given him the ability to GC *or* Gamma Charge in the air, he would be Too Good(tm). As far as charge move vs. QCF-type move, I think this falls under the realm of wishful thinking. GC has been a charge move since MSH; why change now? Sounds more like a personal preference thing. You severely underestimate the GQ. It is his most useful super, hands down. You just have to know how to use it and get the good damage. I'll just chalk that up to a lack of familiarity with the character, & let that go. (Next time you're playing Hulk, do a roundhouse Gamma Charge XX GQ XX Captain Sword (wait until 30 degrees) XX Headcrush (mash) to an assist, & tell me what you think.) GW is a good super. Just don't do it when you know you're not going to get a lot of hits; use the GQ instead. Again, mostly character unfamiliarity. GC is not his best super. Getting a "perfect GC" (unmashable) isn't that hard, and any so-called Hulk player ought to be able to do it, but there are so many other (safer/more reliable) options that he has. I pretty much stay away from it except for THCs. It's a good option to have, though, and great for people doing above-SJ-height hijinx if you know what to do (though the GQ works as well if not better for this, too). Hulk's launcher is fine. You just have to know the proximity. If you know only the first hit is going to get in, either GC or jab command throw (preferable; more reliable). The 2 hits helps you cut through super armor. Hulk doesn't need the planets to line up just so in order to get off. He just needs for you to wavedash, superjump and don't stand there and block everything like you've got a big bullseye on your forehead. He's designed to take a hit (within reason) and make it well worth it by what he gives in return. And to top it all off, Hulk is a guard-breaking fiend! So, to sum up... Hulk (dash) gives better THC, giving the potential to hit point *and* assist rather than one or the other like Colossus. +1 Hulk. Hulk has more supers for more situations. +2 Hulk. Hulk can protect an assist better. +1 Hulk. Hulk is a superior assist punisher on point. +1 Hulk. Hulk has chip normals. +1 Hulk... okay, maybe .5 ( ) Hulk doesn't have to center a gameplan around burning meters for armor. +1 Hulk. Anyway, that's just how I see it, and I'm admittedly biased. I've seen good Colossus before (Foomyjin has a pretty good one, showed me a thing or two), and I respect him. But for me, Hulk does more for the team. I mean... you've already got a character that dies for free to serious runaway and lockdown in Juggernaut. I don't feel comfortable adding another in Colossus, and saying to myself "Oh, shit..." if I get stuck with those two & have to fight Doom, Storm, Spiral traps & stuff like that. But that's just me. -Jugg "Incidentally, those knock-away moves have purpose. You kind of *want* to knock away people like Magnus, Cammy & some others." Posted by Juggrknott on 03:19:2002 01:07 AM: quote: Originally posted by Adept I like to alternate my usual teams with a Juggernaut/Sentinel team once in a while, it's a dramatic change in strategy from my Mag/Storm teams and it's hard for opponents to adapt. My Juggy is pretty lethal, but I have a couple of questions. If I power up Juggs, and then alpha counter to switch him out, will he still be powered up? Or does the glitch only work if he's tagged out? I played a really impressive Juggernaut at Golfland recently, learned a lot of nice tricks. During one match, he guard broke me with a belly flop into HC. To do this, would you use lk, or rh belly flop, and what exactly is the timing? Lastly, someone mentioned Juggy's "toe grab" in the air, what is that? I did some testing on this. I don't know why, but I always figured countering or getting snapped out wouldn't glitch. I guess I thought I had tested it already. It turns out it DOES. Either one. So that opens up some posiibilities for glitching up without having to just about lose a character for doing it. Hope it isn't DC-only or something, 'cause that's how I tested it... Can you describe the flop into HC guard break a little better? The only way I can see this working is if you were way up at SJ height, did a short one and somehow could recover quick enough to HC in time. I'll kick it around some, but more info would be helpful. I'm only aware of one airthrow for Juggernaut... -Jugg Posted by Mr. Big on 03:19:2002 02:41 AM: Nice post, allow me to retort. quote: "His stamina may be a bit better than Hulk's, but it's not a huge difference. Probably won't make or break you in battle." When you're taking damage, an extra 5% armor definitely adds up in the long run. quote: "What I *don't* particularly care for is burning meter on Hyper Armor that probably ought to go to HSF, the tough time he has protecting assists, and just being easier to run from and commit air offense on than Hulk overall." I just don't see how Colossus has a tough time protecting assists. His normals have very long range, high priority, with the Hyper Armor he's unstoppable, and his Power Tackle cancels projectiles and also has high priority. And he also has speed on his side. The Hyper Armor will keep you out of many, many traps and makes you completely unable to be air comboed. Who's going to be worried about an assist when you have speedy, unstoppable powerhouse charging in to hit you while your attention's diverted? quote: "Hyper Armor is good, but when you activate it and come in swinging (and I know you will... ), I'll just launch+SJ if I can't outright run away from you or beat you to a throw. So it's good, but there are ways around it, & the meter you just burned is fine by me. By the way, I don't think you can build a whole bar w/Colossus by the time the armor runs out; if you did, it probably means you got whaled on, and that ain't good." Doing attacks builds up meter, if you charge in with jumping F+Fierces, not only are they hard to get away from while you're on the ground since they cover half the screen, but chances are they will outpriortize anything that you try to hit me with. As for launching me while I'm armored, that's -exactly- what I want you to do: I want you to try and attack me, because that's the very thing that'll leave you open to a combo. You may hit me while I'm armored, but I'll hit you too, and I guarentee you will take more damage than I will. Just from throwing attacks alone you'll get enough meter to do another Hyper Armor by the time the first one finishes, -especially- if I connect with any of those hits. Besides, what are you going to do, run away for the whole match? quote: "The shoulder tackle is OK, but it's no safer than a Gamma Charge, and what are you going to do if they block, cancel into Power Dive?" Touche', but oftentimes you can throw the enemy before they get a chance to attack, but of course this doesn't happen everytime. quote: "Colossus' OTG game is nothing to count on. Nothing rollable is." While you can roll from Colossus normal throw, you -cannot- roll the Power Swing since it activates a Flying Screen. And you can ask anyone who's played against a good Colossus, his sweep into the Power Tackle isn't the easist thing to roll from. Besides, an OTG game is something Hulk also lacks. quote: "His air combo isn't that weird; just leave out the medium punch. And if you say it doesn't hurt, then you must be spoiled by Colossus, Jugg(g) and Sent AC damage or something. I guess pixies give out love taps for AC's by your definition..." Maybe you know more about Hulk's air combo abilities than I do but what you said does prove a point: Colossus is a big character, Jugs is a big character, Sentinel is a big character, they all do big damage with their air combos. Hulk's also a big character, but in every situation, his air combo will do less than theirs. And yes, in comparision, pixies give out love taps, they just hit you a lot more times. If one of your air combos does as much as, for example, one of my Juggernaut Punches, then of course I'm not going to worry as much. It's when you come across a 59682396 hit Magneto Tempest combo that you gotta worry. quote: "His dash could be better, but he actually has a pretty nice "wave-hop" that probably gets you across the screen almost as fast as Colossus' run (which can't be wave-anythinged)." Wave hop? quote: "As far as charge move vs. QCF-type move, I think this falls under the realm of wishful thinking. GC has been a charge move since MSH; why change now? Sounds more like a personal preference thing." Ehh, Capcom has only changed everything else, why not this too? quote: "You severely underestimate the GQ. It is his most useful super, hands down. You just have to know how to use it and get the good damage. I'll just chalk that up to a lack of familiarity with the character, & let that go. (Next time you're playing Hulk, do a roundhouse GC XX GQ XX Captain Sword (wait until 30 degrees) XX Headcrush (mash) to an assist, & tell me what you think.)" That's an example of what I was talking about earlier with the "Sun, Moon, and stars being in proper alignment for an attack to hit properly." That won't connect outside of the corner, and would eat 4 super meters. Give this one a shot with Colossus, in the corner, Jump-in Fierce or Roundhouse into a Power Swing, OTG crouching Roundhouse, Light Power Tackle xx Power Dive. Nice, easy, 5 hits, one super, and will kill a number of chars outright and leave others with very little life left. What do you think of that? quote: "Hulk's launcher is fine. You just have to know the proximity. If you know only the first hit is going to get in, either GC or jab command throw (preferable; more reliable). The 2 hits helps you cut through super armor." That's something Colossus doesn't need and Hulk shouldn't need (being a big character). Colossus, Sentinel, and Juggernaut's fierce attacks (Launchers included) don't need to hit twice to negate super armor. Hulk's attacks do chipping damage, which is something I had forgotten eariler. quote: "And to top it all off, Hulk is a guard-breaking fiend!" How? Granted, I don't use Guard Breaking techniques so I never explored that with Colossus. However, I do see how Hulk's standing Roundhouse could be used as a guard break. quote: "Hulk (dash) gives better THC, giving the potential to hit point *and* assist rather than one or the other like Colossus. +1 Hulk." I'll give ya that one. quote: "Hulk has more supers for more situations. +2 Hulk." Has more supers for more sitations, that's true...but I believe Colossus' supers to be more useful. quote: "Hulk can protect an assist better. +1 Hulk." Don't see how that's the case. quote: "Hulk is a superior assist punisher on point. +1 Hulk." With a Gamma Crush, maybe, but how can he be more of an assist punisher if he has lower overall damage potential than the other big characters? quote: "Hulk has chip normals. +1 Hulk... okay, maybe .5 ( ) " LoL Ok, I'll give you that one too. quote: "Hulk doesn't have to center a gameplan around burning meters for armor. +1 Hulk." Colossus also doesn't need to "burn meters" on armor, but certainly it is a MAJOR monkeywrench to throw into the opponents trap / combo game. I wonder this: what can Hulk, on his own, do against say...a Spiral/Sentinel trap, or a combo-happy Magneto? I'll give Hulk another plus, he has super armor by default: Colossus doesn't get any form of super armor capability until he does the Power Armor, but when he does, it surpasses everyone else (well, except a Silver Samurai Ice Sword x 3). As far as I know, Hulk still doesn't have a crossup, besides his Gamma Crush. Also, Colossus can go after characters who go beyond the SJ level of the screen with his Power Dive. Just something else I wanted to point out. Basically what it comes down to is that we both have our preferences, and nothing we can say is going to change that. Just do what's good for you. Posted by Mr. Big on 03:19:2002 02:51 AM: "Originally posted by Adept I like to alternate my usual teams with a Juggernaut/Sentinel team once in a while, it's a dramatic change in strategy from my Mag/Storm teams and it's hard for opponents to adapt. My Juggy is pretty lethal, but I have a couple of questions. If I power up Juggs, and then alpha counter to switch him out, will he still be powered up? Or does the glitch only work if he's tagged out? I played a really impressive Juggernaut at Golfland recently, learned a lot of nice tricks. During one match, he guard broke me with a belly flop into HC. To do this, would you use lk, or rh belly flop, and what exactly is the timing? Lastly, someone mentioned Juggy's "toe grab" in the air, what is that? " I agree with what Juggrknott said about this one. I'm not sure of the whole "toe grab" thing, since Juggy does only have one air throw. Personally, I think it would be easier to just to a standing RH if you wanted to Guard Crush somebody. The flop just has too much recovery time (weither it hits or especially when it misses) to easily guard crush and then Headcrush someone. Posted by DoomsdayKen on 03:19:2002 04:39 AM: Well being someone who has actually played both characters, I'll add in my 2 cents. I'll definitely give Colossus an edge in terms of air combos, but Hulk's air game is nothing to be sneezed at. Hulk has a very good throw reset combo in the corner and his air to ground, using strong punch, does decent damage. I must say that IMO, Hulk and Colossus's air games are almost even. Tiger kneed Shoulder Charges are a great way to move acroos the screen, very safe. While Hulk has a superior air throw which can be OTG'ed and have decieving priority. And believe me, the combo following his air throw is very devastating. I will say that I like Hulk's supers a little better than Colossus's. Hulk with the dash assist is one of the best THC's. And while the Power Dive is underrated, I think that you have underrated the Gamma Quake. The Gamma Quake is a very safe super when used correctly and is worth the damage. And the Gamma Crush is a great super the use on SJing opponents since the hit the ground about the same time as Hulk is bringing the meteor down. I personally don't really like the Super Armor that Colossus has. While it protects him versus rushdown, it does nothing versus runaway. Cable can AHVB Colossus on reaction to him doing any move and Colossus will eat that super pretty badly. So here, I give Hulk the edge. I'd probably say that Colossus has a slight edge over Hulk in terms oof a ground game. Colossus's reach I think gives him that edge. Otherwise I'd say that SK, SK, RH Gamma Charge and SK, SK, Shoulder Charge are fairly even. I'd say that Colossus's sweep and overall speed on his dash win this battle. I must say however that Hulk can punish assists better and safer than Colossus. So, overall IMO I'd give the edge to Hulk. BTW, I do think that Hulk's Jumping Fierce works as a cross-up. Peace. Posted by Gen2000 on 03:19:2002 05:10 AM: Ok, lets be alittle real here. Colossus is the fastest of the power characters, but Hulk isn't that slow either either dash wise. Jump-in priorities, I say Hulk clearly beats Colossus with his j.HK. Colossus beats Hulk by having less lag on his normals, but come on now, this isn't one on one and since we're talking about Team Steriods, Sent's Ground assist is going to be covering the lag anyways. Hulk's st.hp has nice range. Hulk can actually combo into his launcher more easier than Colossus who has to combo it off a deep hard jump-in attack. About better combos, neither one has better combos than the other. Colossus can rack up easy damage with ACs ending with Power Tackle, but Hulk can do the about the same amount in the corner with his full AC in the corner ending with HK. Hulk can combo a GQ anywhere on the screen after his launcher for great damage, Colossus can't do this unless he is in the corner, so really neither one has better combos than the other. No way is Colossus supers more useful than Hulk's. The only thing Colossus over Hulk is the air super which mention before is nice for DHCing out of, but really Hulk has a super for everything almost. He got the screen covering super (Gamma Wave), the vertical super (Gamma Quake, this thing recovers kinda fast too), and mega damaging super (Gamma Crush). The Gamma Crush alone brings the extra damage to Team Steriods that is needed for those 100% team supers. Colossus Hyper Armor super looks good on paper, but if he didn't flex so damn long after doing it, it would actually be useful. Almost ANYONE can combo this combo for 3 or 4 hits AND throw in a throw to waste most of the time of the thing, then just run away till its over. Damn, there goes the Hyper Armor. The Hyper Armor Colossus vs. Magneto thing is a myth (lol), Magneto can just use the snapback glitch and Colossus already lost the Hyper Armor before he got to use it. Power Dive is only useful in combos (which means its rarely used outside of corners). Colossus beats Hulk in the assist department alittle, his AA Power Charge is a good AAA for Team Steriods, if Hulk could still do his Gamma Crush with his Anti-air, then it wouldn't be a reason to compare then. I'm not a big Hulk player, but I use to play alot of Colossus, but I still the underestimate power of Hulk though, there use to be serious Hulk player down here. I'm not saying Colossus sucks, but I feel everything Colossus does, Hulk do better except for dashing. If Hulk could dash like Colossus and his Command Throw was unblockable, he would be sick . Posted by Juggrknott on 03:19:2002 05:43 AM: Very nice rebuttal. A few points in return (not many)... I'll concede that the 5% difference on stamina could be significant. Do you know offhand if this is for regular form, and then even better when armored up? If that's the case, that really *is* something there... quote: I just don't see how Colossus has a tough time protecting assists. His normals have very long range, high priority, with the Hyper Armor he's unstoppable, and his Power Tackle cancels projectiles and also has high priority. And he also has speed on his side. The Hyper Armor will keep you out of many, many traps and makes you completely unable to be air comboed. Who's going to be worried about an assist when you have speedy, unstoppable powerhouse charging in to hit you while your attention's diverted? This is all true, but Colossus' assist protection is ALL based solely on physical attack. Hulk can do Gamma Rips (that's what I call the regular rocks sometimes) by themselves, or Rip XX GW. It's not always the best answer, but it's an option, & one Colossus probably wishes he had. As far as your answer for my answer to Hyper Armor, well, I guess we'd just have to fight that one out & see what happened. quote: While you can roll from Colossus normal throw, you -cannot- roll the Power Swing since it activates a Flying Screen. And you can ask anyone who's played against a good Colossus, his sweep into the Power Tackle isn't the easist thing to roll from. Besides, an OTG game is something Hulk also lacks. Well, I know next to jack squat about Colossus' properties on his Power Swing, so I will defer to you on that. But you are mistaken about Hulk on one thing; he has a very respectable OTG game, it's just that a lot of it is airthrow or assist-knockdown based. Don't sleep... quote: Maybe you know more about Hulk's air combo abilities than I do but what you said does prove a point: Colossus is a big character, Jugs is a big character, Sentinel is a big character, they all do big damage with their air combos. Hulk's also a big character, but in every situation, his air combo will do less than theirs. And yes, in comparision, pixies give out love taps, they just hit you a lot more times. If one of your air combos does as much as, for example, one of my Juggernaut Punches, then of course I'm not going to worry as much. It's when you come across a 59682396 hit Magneto Tempest combo that you gotta worry. Standard Hulk air combo (launch, SJ jab, short, forward, fierce) = 43 points on Cable. One of my homegrown joints: launch, SJ jab, short, forward (wait, get on other side of character), fierce, roundhouse (land) s. jab XX jab command throw. The part up until you wait, 35 on Cable. Fierce + Roundhouse = another 32. Standing Jab XX jab command throw, another 28. Not a true (air) combo per se, but not shabby damage by ANY yardstick you want to pick and no bars burned. quote: Wave hop? Do a wavedash with Hulk. You'll see what I mean. quote: That's an example of what I was talking about earlier with the "Sun, Moon, and stars being in proper alignment for an attack to hit properly." That won't connect outside of the corner, and would eat 4 super meters. Give this one a shot with Colossus, in the corner, Jump-in Fierce or Roundhouse into a Power Swing, OTG crouching Roundhouse, Light Power Tackle xx Power Dive. Nice, easy, 5 hits, one super, and will kill a number of chars outright and leave others with very little life left. What do you think of that? Well, my setup is only 3 bars, and it will work on an assist outside the corner so long as the point hasn't retaliated on you (which generally better be done before the Sword gets too far down). Jugg hustles over there in time to make it work, & remember the assist can't block (I wouldn't advise trying this on a point character). But I concede that it's not very efficient meter-wise, and I'd also be glad to concede that Colossus has short and insanely strong combos, which blow-for-blow are probably stronger than Hulk's generally. I like your combo. quote: How? Granted, I don't use Guard Breaking techniques so I never explored that with Colossus. However, I do see how Hulk's standing Roundhouse could be used as a guard break. You're on the right track. S. roundhouse can work, as well as a bunch of wall setups and things like making a super jumper block a BH AAA assist, Gamma Charge XX GW/GQ (as appropriate). I also think making an incoming super jumper block Hulk's launch really high (like at his wrists) XX GW works too, but you have to be quick & a great judge of the opponent's decent from SJ-land. I'm no expert though, I've only touched the tip of the iceberg to be honest. quote: With a Gamma Crush, maybe, but how can he be more of an assist punisher if he has lower overall damage potential than the other big characters? Tell ya what... call an assist, and leave him out there to dry. If I can, I will launch, SJ jab, short, forward (pause), short, forward (land) re-launch and either get another standard AC or XX Gamma Quake. I don't have the numbers on me or anything, but it HURTS. No assists, not even any meter if I don't want to burn it. And that's just one example. quote: Colossus also doesn't need to "burn meters" on armor, but certainly it is a MAJOR monkeywrench to throw into the opponents trap / combo game. I wonder this: what can Hulk, on his own, do against say...a Spiral/Sentinel trap, or a combo-happy Magneto? Not a whole lot. Got me there. It is extremely tough. quote: As far as I know, Hulk still doesn't have a crossup, besides his Gamma Crush. Also, Colossus can go after characters who go beyond the SJ level of the screen with his Power Dive. Just something else I wanted to point out. Hulk can cross up with deep jumping Fierce or Roundhouse, and GQ/GC (with Gamma Charges as required for positioning) deals with beyond-SJ-level stuff just fine. quote: Basically what it comes down to is that we both have our preferences, and nothing we can say is going to change that. Just do what's good for you. Agreed. Thanks very much for a nice discussion on these two guys. I enjoyed it, and I know I learned something, hope you did too. And a special thanks to my friend DDK (as well as Gen2000, whose post slipped in under this one during its construction) for an objective take on things from the sidelines. That was very good for the debate. It is appreciated. -Jugg Posted by DoomsdayKen on 03:19:2002 06:24 AM: No problem Mr. Hulk. Always feels good to add to the big man discussion. Sometime we'll have to run some Team Demolition(Colossus/Hulk/Sent) and ODB(Jugg/Hulk/Sent) matches again. Those sure were fun. BTW, I'm feeling that Hulk combo on that assist. I know that has caught me by surprise before. All this talk about Hulk AC's makes me wonder if anybody besides you has seen that 90% reset combo he has in the corner. Oh well. Peace y'all. Posted by Juggrknott on 03:19:2002 06:46 AM: Yeah man, Demolition vs. ODB were some classics. I'd love to do that again sometime soon. It helps me a lot, because I get to see somebody else's Hulk for a change. Helps me learn; your style is a little different from mine. Also, I plan to hit Charlotte, F'ville or a NEN comp night sometime soon. I'll definitely let you know. I hope you can make SC also, I plan to. Give me a holler sometime this week & we can work out the big dogs for a couple of hours. We can even get Maximum Burst to come and turn his new Marrow out... Peace.... -Jugg Posted by DoomsdayKen on 03:19:2002 06:52 AM: Sounds like fun man. I definitely wouldn't mind hitting Fayetteville, Newport News, or Charlotte some time soon. And I definitely plan on hitting up that SC tourney whenever it gets scheduled. I should be around all week, so this week would definitely be the night to crush Marrow... Talk to ya later man. Peace. Posted by Gen2000 on 03:19:2002 08:53 AM: quote: And a special thanks to my friend DDK (as well as Gen2000, whose post slipped in under this one during its construction) for an objective take on things from the sidelines. That was very good for the debate. It is appreciated. No problem, I had fun watching too, Posted by Deathfist on 03:22:2002 11:17 PM: Since we are talking about Hulk and Juggernaut I will mention some simple combos with a normal Juggernaut [unglitched] and a normal Hulk. They aren't that big, but they do have interesting properties damagewise. Some may have already been mentioned. Alot of this is old news too. If they were mentioned earlier by someone else I apologize. =Juggernaut [Hulk-b] Ducking lk, Call Hulk, standing hp, hp juggernaut punch. *Notes*: -This combo can be extended by 1 hit by jumping in hp then doing it -The victim of this combo may not even notice it took away exactly half his health [71/143] if he doesen't look at his health bar. =Juggernaut unblockable [Sentinel] Call Sentinel and punch throw in the direction you're facing, then depending on the opponent's size and your timing juggernaut punch or headcrush. They can't roll because they eat the drones en-route to the ground. =Hulk [Juggernaut-b] Call Juggernaut, ducking [lk, mk], hk Gamma charge, hk charge redirect or gamma quake. *Notes* -This combo can be done off a jump in lk,mk chain but the timings get real wierd, and it does very little more damage. -I prefer to wait till alittle after the juggernaut punch and nail them out of the air using the charge. -This combo is much longer and they WILL notice you took away over half their life with it [super or not] quote: Originally posted by Juggrknott 1]Thank you, Deathfist. I missed this post somehow... my bad. Still knockin' 'em down with Amingo? 2]I will definitely try this out. Like I said, I *want* to be proven wrong on this. Hulk needs all he can get! -Jugg 3]"Can somebody confirm if you can do s. HK XX Gamma Charge XX super right up against the wall against an incoming character for a guard break, or am I just getting lucky?" 1]Juggerknott I still sneak Amingo out from time to time and win with him 2]You found this to be true earlier 3]You found this to be true earlier so I guess you just aren't getting lucky. Well, maybe you are, but that's an entirely different matter. Posted by Amingo on 03:23:2002 03:16 AM: just wanted to add some things... Colossus' Power Dive can be comboed into out of the corner just by doing sj.jab sj.short sj.strong xx super dive canceled down immediately Power Swing is NOT flying screen.. cos if it was, how could you OTG after it, launch, power tackle xx power dive? And if i'm not mistaken, you can only guard break a normal jumping character... so i'm not sure how you can guard break with bh aaa or anything else like that on a super jumping opponent other than that, this was one of the more informative posts i've seen on srk... instead of the usual morons going "u suck!" "yeah u suck more!" Posted by Mr. Big on 03:23:2002 06:06 AM: Flying screens reset the OTG's (generally you can only OTG once in a combo) unless a move has a property to cause a flying screen: Juggernaut Punch, Power Swing, etc. Posted by Romie on 03:25:2002 09:30 PM: wit tha hulk guardbreak, which direction is the gamma charge?? up or foreward?? and does juggernaut and sentinel have guardbreaks?? Posted by Juggrknott on 03:26:2002 02:08 PM: quote: Originally posted by Romie wit tha hulk guardbreak, which direction is the gamma charge?? up or foreward?? and does juggernaut and sentinel have guardbreaks?? The Hulk GB I do on incoming characters is to get as close to the wall as possible, charge back, s. HK XX Gamma Charge (horizontal) XX super. I usually use the roundhouse Gamma Charge. Getting in position and holding back for your charge in time takes some getting used to, but it's not too bad. Relatively safe, too; even if you screw up or it doesn't get in, do the Gamma Quake anyway and you should be fine. I defer to others as far as Juggernaut & Sentinel GBs. Jugg's medium kick in the air has good GB properties. I'd suggest the recent Sentinel thread authored by Brood for some good info on Sent (since there isn't too much on him in this thread). -Jugg Posted by BlackShinobi on 03:26:2002 03:12 PM: Juggernaut GB - j.HK, Headcrush Sentinel GB - j.HP, fly, lk, lk, (upward) rocket punch Posted by BmoreSentinel on 03:26:2002 10:13 PM: Mike B., you need to goto the Sentinel Thread at http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...60&pagenumber=4 and post some pointers Sentinel! I've been to philly a few times with Lupid before and seen some good sentinel but nobody knows how to dominate with him in MD.i've been playing him for a bit but i need to improve. im' really trying to learn him and i think im' going to head up to upinn for like two days off my spring break. Posted by Gen2000 on 03:27:2002 12:19 AM: Sentinel also has a GB on incoming characters, just do the (LK)Sentinel Fleet and aim it towards the incoming characters area, after Sent recovers, dash in and do whatever after the opponent is coming out of block stun (either st.hk or a simple air combo). Posted by Romie on 03:27:2002 01:45 AM: anyone have any vids of this or similar teams being played? i have the 3X vids, but thats about it... All times are GMT. The time now is 01:00 AM. Show all 60 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.